The Loose Association of Wargamers

Thanks for the comprehensive answers, chaps - very informative.

RMD wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 4:06 pm Most other NATO nations (USA, NL, FRG, DK, FR, IT, etc) went in the opposite direction, settling on 'Recce By Tank' (the notable exceptions being Plucky Little Belgium, who went for a carbon-copy of the British organisation and Canada, who settled for 'Recce By Death').

Sorry, once again - explanation, please?

Fredd, if you work on a sheet size of A4 or US Letter size, with tac plates being about 5mm square in 1/48, you should be able to work out what we can do, mate.

BvW- so why did the Welsh Guards get Cromwells?

Thanks for asking that. Mark and Fredd explained it better than most books (which usually have taints of Cromwell versus Sherman about them). I just think the Cromwell is a better-looking vehicle. Apart from that there's SFA difference between Cromwells and Shermans that I can see. (Except the Sherman crews can probably pronounce "Ll" correctly.)

Suitable recce vehicles are still a major issue. Here the answer to a requirement for a low-profile, light, agile recce car ended up as the Hawkei- taller than a Unimog, seven tonnes (unloaded), as agile as a Chelsea Pensioner with a bad back and hips, only recently got declared roadworthy (a good driver doesn't need working brakes and sissy stuff like that, apparently) and can drown out a screaming match in parliament from 30 miles away. (To be fair it's possibly not quite that loud.)

BaronVonWreckedoften wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 7:45 pm Thanks for the comprehensive answers, chaps - very informative.

RMD wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 4:06 pm Most other NATO nations (USA, NL, FRG, DK, FR, IT, etc) went in the opposite direction, settling on 'Recce By Tank' (the notable exceptions being Plucky Little Belgium, who went for a carbon-copy of the British organisation and Canada, who settled for 'Recce By Death').

Sorry, once again - explanation, please?

The Cold War Canadians just used a single type of tracked light recce vehicle (M113 C&R Lynx), with nothing heavier than a .50 Cal and without the range of tactical options found in other nations' recce units - sneaking was the only option. Our old mate Tim always called it 'Recce By Death' (even more so when they lost even those vehicles and instead received the awful VW Iltis jeep).

RMD wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 4:06 pm

BaronVonWreckedoften wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 3:04 pm Disclaimer: WW2 is NOT my period.

With that out of the way, could I, if not actually hijack the thread, then perhaps nudge it - gently, mind - into a ditch? What determined which tanks the armoured battalions of Guards Armoured were issued? I seem to recall that the Grenadier and Irish Guards got Shermans, so why did the Welsh Guards get Cromwells? (I guess giving those to the 'Micks' would have been tempting fate a wee bit!)

Wot Fred said.

From roughly 1943 onward the armoured division recce doctrine changed from 'Sneak'n'Peek' to 'German-style 'Fight For Information' (albeit far heavier than the German idea, which had also been adopted as US doctrine). Each armoured division's armoured car regiment was then swapped for an armoured recce regiment. In NW Europe, the British and Poles used Cromwell in that role, while the Canadians used Sherman and in Italy everyone used a 50/50 split of Sherman & Stuart. The armoured car regiments were elevated to corps troops.

It didn't take long in the reality of Normandy for everyone to realise that the concept was bollocks and eventually the armoured cars went back to the armoured divisions; informally from late 1944 and formally after the war. The armoured recce regiments remained, but as a de facto fourth armoured regiment in the division.

and don't forget that the British armoured regiments (& ARRs) also contained a troop of Stuarts of various marks so they did retain some organic recce capacity. I'm not sure if the Canadians and Poles also had them.

Etranger wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 4:51 am

RMD wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 4:06 pm

BaronVonWreckedoften wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 3:04 pm Disclaimer: WW2 is NOT my period.

With that out of the way, could I, if not actually hijack the thread, then perhaps nudge it - gently, mind - into a ditch? What determined which tanks the armoured battalions of Guards Armoured were issued? I seem to recall that the Grenadier and Irish Guards got Shermans, so why did the Welsh Guards get Cromwells? (I guess giving those to the 'Micks' would have been tempting fate a wee bit!)

Wot Fred said.

From roughly 1943 onward the armoured division recce doctrine changed from 'Sneak'n'Peek' to 'German-style 'Fight For Information' (albeit far heavier than the German idea, which had also been adopted as US doctrine). Each armoured division's armoured car regiment was then swapped for an armoured recce regiment. In NW Europe, the British and Poles used Cromwell in that role, while the Canadians used Sherman and in Italy everyone used a 50/50 split of Sherman & Stuart. The armoured car regiments were elevated to corps troops.

It didn't take long in the reality of Normandy for everyone to realise that the concept was bollocks and eventually the armoured cars went back to the armoured divisions; informally from late 1944 and formally after the war. The armoured recce regiments remained, but as a de facto fourth armoured regiment in the division.

and don't forget that the British armoured regiments (& ARRs) also contained a troop of Stuarts of various marks so they did retain some organic recce capacity. I'm not sure if the Canadians and Poles also had them.

Yes, they all had the Recce Troop. There's something at the back of my mind though that says the Welsh Guards replaced theirs with more Cromwells, but I'd have to check on that. 15/19th Hussars (who replaced the 1st Northants Yeomanry in 11th Armoured Division at the end of Bluecoat) went in the opposite direction, replacing their Stuarts with scout cars (in addition to the scout cars already present in the Liaison/Intercom Tp.

As well as Jalopy'ing stuarts and daimlers becoming popular.

The Humber and Daimler scout cars were much loved by their crews, not least as if the enemies first shot missed, they accelerated too fast for an easy second.

if you want to go deeper into how Normandy doctrine changed and became essentially the same one used by people today, these books covers it well. Stout Hearts by Ben Kite and British Armour in the Normandy Campaign 1944 (Military History and Policy)
by John Buckley

Fredd Bloggs

British Armour in the Normandy Campaign 1944 (Military History and Policy) by John Buckley

My wallet hates you, Fredd:

https://www.addall.com/SuperRare/UsedRa ... B&via=used

It's an "I'll get that next week" book that I never got around to getting. I wish I bloody had!

Some more Squamous goodness off the printer today. A Rebel AT-RT

That's lovely that is. Only my resin stocks are depleted and it might be a good idea to paint some stuff before printing more.. heresy I know.

Spanner wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 11:44 pm

Fredd Bloggs

British Armour in the Normandy Campaign 1944 (Military History and Policy) by John Buckley

My wallet hates you, Fredd:

https://www.addall.com/SuperRare/UsedRa ... B&via=used

It's an "I'll get that next week" book that I never got around to getting. I wish I bloody had!

Sorry, but if delving into this, he is a very even handed author on the matter, giving the bad and the good. His other books are good too.

The Tank Museum has also reissued (finally) its books on British armour for WW2, The Great Tank Scandal and The Universal Tank, both of which are interesting reads.