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Re: Some SYW Hessians
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:32 pm
by RMD
Spanner wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 10:08 pm
Very nice, mate. I'm with you with respect to the infantry flags. The design is right and, even if we can't be 100% sure of which colour Regimentsfahnen were used with which regiment, the tradition was that they matched the facings (with white facings using another colour). I'm unlikely to get to the Hessians so I'll drool on the photos of yours.
I'd dismissed Clostercamp as a game, thinking it was too unbalanced. I'll have to reconsider that- if I can woo the locals away from pegasi, wizards, giants and similar.
PS Fred the Hessian wasn't exactly flush with cash, either, so new flags were probably on his "Some Day I'll..." list.
Cheers Dal!
Yeah, I figured that the new uniforms would take at least one or two years to come into play (assuming the issue of one new coat per year and possibly having to use up the current year's stocks) and the new flags would take quite a bit longer to appear, due to their expense. I also like the fact that unlike the Brunswickers, they're very non-Prussian in appearance.
Yeah, I think that if you just zoom in on the 'point of contact' at Clostercamp and largely ignore the other formations in the area, Clostercamp is an interesting little battle. It certainly isn't 'cavalry country'! However, I think the Allies are always going to be on a sticky wicket due to the numbers that the French can eventually bring to bear against them. It certainly was a fun game and one I'd like to revisit without all the distractions of catching up with old mates.
Re: Some SYW Hessians
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:34 pm
by RMD
BaronVonWreckedoften wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 8:13 pm
Just read the article and subsequent comments. The "white" would almost certainly be white lead oxide which was the same colour used on British guns/limbers/etc during this period (and often wrongly depicted as blue-grey by wargamers!); thus off-white/slightly grey would be credible. I had a felling that I have seen a post-Trenton portrait of Washington that has a Hesse-Cassel gun carriage in the shot, which is in the livery of the pre-1770 period, but always figured that it was an artist's research error, and the AWI guns were on Prussian-style medium blue carriages. I guess we'll never know for sure!
That could be the case, though one fly in the ointment is David Morier's painting of the RA on campaign in the 1740s, which shows the gun-carriages painted a rather dark 'panzer grey' (including some other interesting little details, such as individual gun numbers and weights being painted on). You can see it on my blog-post here:
http://www.jemimafawr.co.uk/2022/05/30/ ... artillery/
Re: Some SYW Hessians
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 10:29 pm
by BaronVonWreckedoften
Thanks - interesting read. I think you - and a lot of historians - are a tad harsh on Sackville/Germain whose unpopularity owed more, I suspect, to his homosexuality (reputedly quite aggressive) than to his military misbehaviour in Germany. Whilst he is invariably "hung out to dry" for the loss of the American colonies, his only black mark was perhaps allowing Burgoyne to sweet-talk him into command of the Saratoga expedition, when Cornwallis had been earmarked for it. Up to that point, he had done rather well IMO, his masterful assembling of merchant shipping and logistics being largely responsible for Howe's substantial army being in position for the 1776 campaign, which almost (and probably should have) won the war.
As regards Morier's "dark grey", the actual recipe was a mix of white lead oxide and lamp black, and it is quite possible that some mixtures ended up darker, or lighter, than others.
Re: Some SYW Hessians
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 10:34 pm
by RMD
Cheers, yes, true enough on all counts, though I'd never read that Sackville caught the bus on the other side of the street before!
Re: Some SYW Hessians
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 10:38 pm
by Panzer21
BaronVonWreckedoften wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 10:29 pm
Thanks - interesting read. I think you - and a lot of historians - are a tad harsh on Sackville/Germain whose unpopularity owed more, I suspect, to his homosexuality (reputedly quite aggressive) than to his military misbehaviour in Germany. Whilst he is invariably "hung out to dry" for the loss of the American colonies, his only black mark was perhaps allowing Burgoyne to sweet-talk him into command of the Saratoga expedition, when Cornwallis had been earmarked for it. Up to that point, he had done rather well IMO, his masterful assembling of merchant shipping and logistics being largely responsible for Howe's substantial army being in position for the 1776 campaign, which almost (and probably should have) won the war.
As regards Morier's "dark grey", the actual recipe was a mix of white lead oxide and lamp black, and it is quite possible that some mixtures ended up darker, or lighter, than others.
And of course, a useful correction is "The Coward of Minden" by Piers Mackesy.
I think he makes a very good case to at least partly exonerate Lord George.
Unless of course you subscribe to the infallibility of Ferdinand of Brunswick.....
Neil
Re: Some SYW Hessians
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 10:41 pm
by Panzer21
RMD wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 10:34 pm
Cheers, yes, true enough on all counts, though I'd never read that Sackville caught the bus on the other side of the street before!
"Notorious bugger" is I believe the phrase detractors used of him.....
And no, he wasn't an C18th Rap artist.......
Neil
Re: Some SYW Hessians
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 10:49 pm
by BaronVonWreckedoften
Yes, as Panzer21 says, Piers Mackesy comments on it in his biography of Sackville, and its impact on his reputation generally, as well on his (in)ability to get on with ministerial colleagues and his departmental staff. One of his partners was the American inventor and prominent Loyalist, Benjamin Thompson (later better known as Count Rumford, the Bavarian War Minister). Which possibly explains those weird 1790s Bavarian uniforms.....
Re: Some SYW Hessians
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 11:05 pm
by RMD
Panzer21 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 10:41 pm
RMD wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 10:34 pm
Cheers, yes, true enough on all counts, though I'd never read that Sackville caught the bus on the other side of the street before!
"Notorious bugger" is I believe the phrase detractors used of him.....
And no, he wasn't an C18th Rap artist.......
Neil
Re: Some SYW Hessians
Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:23 am
by Spanner
An interesting discussion, gents. Like Mark I didn't know Sackville was homosexual. But then, apart from the Minden mythology, I don't much about him at all. I'm quite surprised by his being involved in the AWI, too.
As regards paint on carriages I'm of the same view as with uniforms- if it's roughly the described colour and you're happy with it then it must be right. Between paint mixes, application, weathering and other factors nobody really knows. Even these days if you put five military vehicles side by side then you'll see at least two different shades of the base colour.