The Loose Association of Wargamers

Etranger wrote: ↑Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:45 am

RMD wrote: ↑Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:20 am ....

Kampfgruppe 'Meyer' was formed from Otto Meyer's SS-Panzer-Regiment 9, the remnants of III.(SPW)/SS-Panzer-Grenadier-Regiment 20, Zollhoefer's SS-Panzer-Grenadier-Regiment 'H', part of Graebner's SS-Panzer-Aufklaerungs-Abteilung 9 and most of the division's artillery. The survivors of 21. Panzer-Division were also placed under Meyer's command.
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Any idea as to 21PzD residual strength at that point Mark? I've seen figures suggesting that they lost 50% + of personnel (& presumably equipment) in Normandy but some at least of their 'French' SPWs escaped as there are pictures from Lorraine in late 1944 of them.

They were severely depleted, though they were one of the only divisions to receive replacement Pz IVs during the campaign, so it's difficult to establish exactly what their panzer losses were. Interestingly, there is a surviving photo of one of 8. Kompanie's six original Pz IV B/Cs knocked out near Caumont, so they were still in the fight when that battle started. 21. PD also had the remnants of sPzAbt 503 under command, with approximately 11x Tiger I & II remaining at the start of the BLUECOAT battle. However, they suffered quite badly during their abortive counter-attack against Caumont, so by the time they came under KGr Meyer, they were probably no stronger than a regiment. I'll check Perrigault, Kortenhaus and Zetterling when I get home.

FreddBloggs wrote: ↑Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:51 am Thank you RMD, useful and comprehensive as always.

One last question, the tiger 2 was met in normandy in small numbers, do we have a date for when?

3. Kompanie of schwere-Panzer-Abteilung 503 had 14x Tiger II (Porsche turret type) when they were committed to Normandy. The other two companies had Tiger I (31x Tiger I including the Bn HQ). They were attached to 21. Panzer-Division on 17th July and were deployed on the left flank of that division, east of Cagny. However, they had the misfortune to be bombed during the night of 17/18th July by RAF Bomber Command in preparation for Operation GOODWOOD. The 1st & 3rd Companies got the worst of it, with two Tiger IIs being destroyed outright and a third being buried in and abandoned. They then lost at least one more on the 18th, which was rammed and then KOd at point-blank range by an Irish Guards Sherman (one Lt Gorman, who sadly died not long ago).

I forget the casualty rates for 1st Company, but numerous Tiger Is were destroyed by the bombing and the remnants were then badly shot up during a counter-attack against Op GOODWOOD. The company was disbanded soon after, with their surviving Tiger Is being passed to 2nd Company.

I've got a history for the unit at home ('45 Tiger en Normandie'), so will have a look for any further details.

I forgot to add that the unit lost one Tiger II to a 2-inch mortar belonging to the DCLI at Le Plessis-Grimoult, during the battle for Mont Pincon in early August. They lost another two Tiger IIs shortly afterwards and then were forced to scuttle another four on 18th August. At least one Tiger II was still fighting during the retreat across the River Dives a couple of days later - that was probably the last survivor.

I also forgot to mention that another five Tiger IIs (again with Porsche turrets) spent the entire campaign parked on rail-flats in the far south of Normandy. These were radio-control vehicles for Funklenk-Panzer-Abteilung 316 and were designed to replace the StuG IIIs previously used in that role (for controlling radio-controlled Sdkfz 301 demolition vehicles). They had an armoured observation window in lieu of the hull MG. These simply didn't work and were awaiting re-shipment to Germany when they were overrun by Operation COBRA. They did manage to get them off the train to mount an all-round defence of the town, but they were eventually overwhelmed. These tanks had BIG two-digit white numbers painted on the turrets and were well-photographed. Often mis-labelled in books as belonging to sPzAbt 503.

The 1st Company of sPzAbt 503, as well as the 1st Company of SSsPzAbt 101 were on their way back to Normandy during late August/early September 1944, having been re-equipped at Mailly with Tiger II (Henschel turret type). These were encountered in ones and twos by the Allies after the Seine was crossed.

BaronVonWreckedoften wrote: ↑Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:03 am Some spankingly detailed info there, Mark. Glad my WW2 interest is limited to 1940 France/Low Countries. And then, sometimes not so glad.....

Cheers. I did quite a bit of research on the activities of the 10th SS and KGr Paetsch during Op BLUECOAT in preparation for my trip to Normandy with Urban when he was researching 'Tankies'/'Tank War'. He had a wealth of interviews with 5 RTR veterans regarding a sharp battle they'd had to the west of Aunay-sur-Odon, where they lost most of the regiment's tanks in a single day (they ran into KGr Paetsch, which managed to isolated and destroy two entire squadrons).

I sometimes suspect you just have this stuff committed to memory. It leaves my poor research efforts to pale in the background.

grizzlymc wrote: ↑Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:20 am I sometimes suspect you just have this stuff committed to memory. It leaves my poor research efforts to pale in the background.

These replies are actually by my Normandybot. I'm asleep.

I reckon a pub session with you and John Salt would be great. I could uncharacteristically sit in silence and listen.

And I bet you are supposed to be working, whilst the trains pile up outside the signal box.

grizzlymc wrote: ↑Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:03 am I reckon a pub session with you and John Salt would be great. I could uncharacteristically sit in silence and listen.

And I bet you are supposed to be working, whilst the trains pile up outside the signal box.

John and I don't remotely compare. He's a man who goes straight to primary sources. Aside from a few war-diaries and veteran interviews, I'm merely someone who reads a lot of books (again, my job gives me a lot of time for that). John is most definitely The Master.

Though yes, a pub session would be brilliant. One day...

(Although you've got a 50% headstart in getting legless, which is somewhat unfair...)

His other one is hollow though, so that holds a lot...

My boss always asks me when he phones me things like : Äre you legless", or "Did I catch you on the hop". Capitalist exploiter of the disabled working classes.