The Loose Association of Wargamers

Paul - would your average mob of late 17thC Scots really have any significant numbers of lochaber axes and two handed claymores? I rather like the Newline Scots but lochabers and, to a lesser extent, claymores would disturb the aesthetic look of the unit........in my very humble and heretical opinion.

We overlapped our posts......I'm not changing mine now.

Essex Boy wrote: ↑Sun May 17, 2020 4:23 pm Sorry, I misunderstood. Are you after William III's (William I's?) Scottish army? Bonnets rather than floppy hats? Cool. Wouldn't a blob of Green Stuff be easier than a whole head swap?

Have you got a piccie of said Scot? You've got me wondering about 1688 now! I've already done a few units with floppy hats and pikes. Where's my Newline hotline.............................. git.

I was looking at the late James VII period through to the Act of Union so including 1688/9 onwards.
Yes I think green stuff might be the way to go, which will probably restrict me to two regiments in bonnet as I can't face cutting off more than 50 or so hats
The uniforms in question are shown in the Reid's volume on "The Last Army of Scotland" and are basically described in contemporary documents as frock coats and breeches. Much of the equipment was rather ad hoc so it's just the bonnets that have bothered me

As for claymore and Lochaber axe. Both would certainly have been used by 'regular' militias and highland clan Regts in the Late C17th. The two handed/hand and a half 'Claymore' maybe less so than the Lochaber! Accounts of Bothwell Bridge in 1690 describe Lochaber axes being used by the militia there and that's good enough for me
[EDIT: That said the Newline Lochabers look to have shafts which are too long. It's unlikely that they'd have been longer than 5 1/2 to 6ft and most were much shorter]

As far as I have been able to trace, none of the regular scots formally wore a bonnet, informally is another matter of course, but in 1704 the only Scottish regiment, in Scotland was actually in Dutch service (prior to being transferred back to English establishment), with tricorne and low dutch mitre grenadiers, the other regulars were either English or Irish Regiments (2 and 1 I think). Militia I do not know, the 15 is out of my knowledge zone.

From 1701 until 1704 the whole army whether English or Scottish had been completely revamped from Williams 9 years war troops. In the main the only things that survived were facing colours and flags and a lot of them changed in 1707.

One of the reasons regiments were all over the place was that the high command was trying to get every regiment to do at least 3 months in the Dublin garrison.

That's handy, cheers Paul.

I've not got that book but it sounds like I can get away with using bog standard uniforms and simply doing the blob thing for the hat. I'm going to further assume an element of pikes in a company, but what about the muskets - flintlock or matchlock? Or, rather, cartridge box or apostles? I appreciate we're talking 'best guess' here.

Sorry Fred.......we've cross threaded....

Cartridge bag or apostles, in the 1688 apostles are still seen but by 1692'ish the regulats had gone over to a bag on the hip. Cartridge boxes are the province of privately raised or french supplied troops at this point. Unless doing Neerwinden or Steenkirk, a mix is probably appropriate.

Thanks Fred.

FreddBloggs wrote: ↑Sun May 17, 2020 4:51 pm As far as I have been able to trace, none of the regular scots formally wore a bonnet,

In the 1690's Several Regts did. Argyle's retained theirs until they were disbanded in 1698, Grant's and Lindsay's (A 'fencible' Regt) probably did and Angus' Regt. May have as a Privy Council document from 1691(I think) accounts for the order of 1200 'hats' but I have seen at least one illustration depicting the Regt around that time in Bonnets. It may be that '91 was the changeover. Lindsays' may have worn fusilier caps not bonnets but as I understand it there is some argument over which is correct.
All of the above (and as far as I know most others) used the fur cap for their Grenadiers.

There are good contemporary accounts of Militias wearing the bonnet and such Regts were considered quite 'posh' if they actually wore hats!

Ahhhh I tjink we might be at slightly cross purposes, I am talking post 1701.

In the 9yw there were 2 Scottish regiments in Swedish dress, several in Dutch service, the trusted in english dress and the rest in basically what they could find. The British williamite army is a disaster of standardisation.

FreddBloggs wrote: ↑Sun May 17, 2020 5:14 pm Cartridge bag or apostles, in the 1688 apostles are still seen but by 1692'ish the regulats had gone over to a bag on the hip. Cartridge boxes are the province of privately raised or french supplied troops at this point. Unless doing Neerwinden or Steenkirk, a mix is probably appropriate.

Pretty much how i'd have put it Reid refers to both Cartridge boxes and Patronashes (ie a small box worn on the waistbelt like, he says, the Dutch and French).
As to Muskets, the changeover to Flintlock started in the mid 1680's. The Scots Guard rank and file got theirs in 1686 although the Grenadiers had fusils from '82. Other Regts were certainly at least in the process of changing by 1689.

I was wondering how you depict pikes in your Regts? I couldn't find a picture although I'm sure there are some. Do they get a separate stand or part of the Command stand etc... I'm looking at nominally around 1/4 to 1/3 as Pikes (alhough some militia appear to have more) for the period i'm interested in.

Essex Boy wrote: ↑Sun May 17, 2020 5:01 pm I've not got that book...

I wouldn't really recommend it
As it's been years since I last looked at all this I had to refer back to it and have become increasingly irritated by the lack of clear references. You have to trawl through the text to get an indicator of where he got the info from