The Loose Association of Wargamers

valleyboy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:41 pm Are there no circumstances that would induce you to back something RMD? Lets say that a reliable company like Eureka or AB were about to produce a particular group of figures you really wanted and say developed the 300 club further and that it was tied up with cash rather than just registering interest
Just wondering

Nope.

Kickstarter creators are "legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project". Creators take on a contract to do so.

However allowing creators to produce things that they otherwise couldn't, is what crowdfunding is all about. It's not for everyone and the risks are often misunderstood.
Maybe i'm more understanding than most, but I currently have an outstanding order with an established wargames company, made through their webstore nearly three months ago. It will get here eventually and I know they've been having problems.

RMD wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:37 pm

valleyboy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:41 pm Are there no circumstances that would induce you to back something RMD? Lets say that a reliable company like Eureka or AB were about to produce a particular group of figures you really wanted and say developed the 300 club further and that it was tied up with cash rather than just registering interest
Just wondering

Nope.

Good principles RMD
I just wondered if you might just have bent a tiny bit

I've bought into 3 or 4 wargames Kickstarters. All have been from established companies, and all have delivered (pretty much) on time, and with excellent products and with a discount for Kickstarter backers.

If you're not comfortable with it, you don't have to use it. For a small company (as are the vast majority of wargames businesses) then it has significant advantages.

For me, the lead time isn't hugely significant - it's not as though I have no other wargames projects to keep me busy in the meantime, and I have seen some lovely products that otherwise might not have seen the light of day.

DougM wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:51 pm I've bought into 3 or 4 wargames Kickstarters. All have been from established companies, and all have delivered (pretty much) on time, and with excellent products and with a discount for Kickstarter backers.

If you're not comfortable with it, you don't have to use it. For a small company (as are the vast majority of wargames businesses) then it has significant advantages.

For me, the lead time isn't hugely significant - it's not as though I have no other wargames projects to keep me busy in the meantime, and I have seen some lovely products that otherwise might not have seen the light of day.

^^This^^

On the Welsh, since Matt is sculpting them, I'm pretty sure the last we spoke they are not all made and master molded. That may have changed since of course. The examples given of established companies resorting to Kickstarter funding exactly illustrated my point that they use other people's money to finance their costs, clearly lacking faith and/or funds to back a product noone is presently asking for. It's worth remembering that each Company is chasing a finite amount of money from a finite number of wargamers, so it may be that these flash in the pan products are harming the extension of existing ranges.

Paul wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:54 pm Kickstarter creators are "legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project". Creators take on a contract to do so.

Yes, but with a company registered in New York. Investors are also then engaging with that same company and the transaction is handled in New York, so the contract is worthless if you're in the UK unless you can afford to engage a New York lawyer (even then, those who have tried that route have failed). Kickstarter have consistently refused to provide refunds and won't sue their clients on your behalf for breach of contract. The only sanction is that Kickstarter will stop them from using the service again, which doesn't remotely help the investor.

If you want to get your money back it's going to be a hell of a lot more complicated than invoking Distance Selling Regulations and/or the Sale of Goods Act and going to the Small-Claims Court, as you would be able to if you'd simply bought a product (making a claim against your credit card company under the Consumer Credit Act is also a non-starter, as investments are specifically not covered). If the seller is also in the UK you could take out a private prosecution, but the Small Claims Court won't handle it and it'll cost a hell of a lot more than you've already lost. Trading Standards might take an interest, but that doesn't mean you'll get your money back.

I can understand what you're saying and why it's good for some companies and some buyers, but for me personally I simply can't be arsed and there's absolutely nothing I want that badly. Forums (including this one) are absolutely stuffed with the Kewl Kidz gushing breathlessly about unboxing Lardy's Bolt-Action Baron's Rampantgrave 11.7mm Walrus-Polishing Kit Kickstarter Stretch-Goals (or whatever it might be this week), but the size of the fuck that I couldn't give about the wargaming fads of the moment can only be measured in Astronomical Units.

Penda wrote: ↑Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:55 am On the Welsh, since Matt is sculpting them, I'm pretty sure the last we spoke they are not all made and master molded. That may have changed since of course. The examples given of established companies resorting to Kickstarter funding exactly illustrated my point that they use other people's money to finance their costs, clearly lacking faith and/or funds to back a product noone is presently asking for. It's worth remembering that each Company is chasing a finite amount of money from a finite number of wargamers, so it may be that these flash in the pan products are harming the extension of existing ranges.

They are using other peoples money in exactly the same way as a bank loan or a mortgage holder is.

The issue small and large wargames company play with is xashflow, so they rarely have large reinvest amounts sat around, this method lets them access that money.

What you are essentially saying is you object to buying from anyone that uses someone elses money to fund it. Good luck with that. All your supermarkets amongst other things are now off limits to you....

No, I'm saying creating artificial cravings is to the detriment of existing ranges of figures which could be expanded usefully. I'm entirely with RMD on the matter of finding Kickstarter completely irrelevant.

RMD wrote: ↑Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:47 am If you want to get your money back it's going to be a hell of a lot more complicated than invoking Distance Selling Regulations and/or the Sale of Goods Act and going to the Small-Claims Court...

Yes it's all a bit trickier, although technically still a UK based Court/lawyers thing to handle it, if that's where the creators are based. That is the reason I have only ever backed one non-UK based project and that became about as difficult as i've encountered.
It was with an established mid sized Italian company who were evasive and not entirely truthful when they failed to deliver on time. They eventually delivered the final items to backers about two years late and months after the general public had been able to buy the products at Salute! During the course of the "discussions" It transpired that they were not even legally a company in Italy, despite having traded for years and are still trading today.