The Loose Association of Wargamers

That makes sense for just about every form of warfare except chainsaw fights.

You could see that if pike were a small force, you might concentrate your muskets on them, wait till they break and then charge his muskets with yours. Once his muskets flinch, your muskets draw swords and charge to follow up on the success of the pikes.

I would think that ordered pikes could only be broken by fire.

No one would have gone into a fight without at least a big knife to back up their primary weapon. Aren't there contemporary descriptions and illustrations of Pikemen carrying a knife in their 'back' hand?

Paul wrote: ↑Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:04 pm No one would have gone into a fight without at least a big knife to back up their primary weapon. Aren't there contemporary descriptions and illustrations of Pikemen carrying a knife in their 'back' hand?

I know the pose you mean. Plenty of modern photos showing it & a few figures posed that way too(eg Minifgs 15mm armoured pikeman). Position Number 16 here. (from http://goodescompany.com/event/843/ )






Another contemporary image - 1672, possibly continental. ( from http://warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com/2017 ... rmour.html )



Typical early 17th century ECW deployment (from https://scolarcardiff.wordpress.com/201 ... rt-of-war/ )

Suggestions:
DBECW infantry units should be double-depth size, made up of two single-depth bases, one behind the other.

One base is pike, one is shot.
A unit may be deployed either ‘pike forward’ or ‘shot forward’.
This reflects whether the shot is ‘out’ and shooting, or ‘withdrawn’ behind pike or within the pike square, whatever.

The mechanism for changing formation is twofold.
First: deliberate order change.
You can deploy your units as you wish, pike-forward or shot-forward, and you can change the formation for any unit which moves, ie you can move, and end that move arrayed as you wish.

Second: response to being charged.
This is resolved in the same way as forming a square in DBN. It reflects the shot attempting to withdraw when their unit is charged. There should be a chance that they don’t make it, and are at a disadvantage in the ensuing combat.

Pike/Shot proportion:
If a unit is composed primarily of shot, it’s pike component should count as Militia.
Vice versa, if a unit was composed primarily of pike, that unit shoots as militia.

Norm, you've been talking sense right up to this point LOL. Good old DBN is not directly interested in the fine detail tactics of each unit (Line, Column, order d mix, skirmishers in, skirmishers out) that's for other sets of rules, its interested in manoeuvre and combat results, thats what a CinC or Wing Commander would be interested in, likewise with the possible DBECW. It is assumed that the unit would adopt the best possible formation to suit its situation and if it loses the combat then 'it got it wrong' simples. As I said the tactics of the time should always be well considered but for a DBECW however to work they should be logicised (is that a word ?) out to their final situational conclusion IMO. I think the figures of a full unit should be on a single base, at least 2 ranks deep and should look good. My focus would be on command & control or the lack of it and awkward sub commanders with their own domestic or military agendas maybe ?
I have struggled to find the 'fun' bit in an historically correct ECW wargame (always have done and this wasn't my idea or suggestion, it was that 'hand grenade in the room and walk away' Tim W). I don't think the fun is in the tactics of the battle because there wasn't much and it was all rather samey IMO. So I think the interesting & fun bit (the reason to do it) would be in the crashing together of two big lines of troops (which DBN can do easily) and in the difficulty in controlling and managing these groups of units IMO. Just more food for thought

i like your point re controlling the troops and its something the DBxx is good at (the original DBA was fundamentally about the challenges of organised armies vs irregular armies)

BaronVonWreckedoften wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:02 am Hedgerows were quite rare in England at this time - so rare in fact, that they were considered terrain features worthy of being included on maps.

What you have to remember is that maps of the period were private commisions and only features important to the patron were recorded. There is also a somewhat interchangeable terminology for fences/hedges which adds confusion.
However around 16% by acreage of all woodland in England was actually hedges around 1600AD.
In a typical rural parish today in excess of 80% of extant hedges predate 1612AD, which is a huge figure given the amount of hedges destroyed by C20th farming methods.
Of course a lot of destroyed hedging probably dated from the period of enclosure but something approaching 200000 miles of hedge were planted during the Medieval and immediate post Medieval period.
So if you wanted to festoon an ECW battlefield with a significant amount of large and unruly hedges you would certainly not be incorrect.

Ooh, pot, kettle, and - might I add - black, Mr Testo!

DBN can and does go right down to the effects of an individual guy on the battlefield (Bektasi dervish attached to a Jannissary Orta?)and contains multiple examples of units with conditional ratings, like Regular HA which acts as M (because it’s a small unit) Regular LC which melees as E, all that stuff.
That stuff is business as usual to DBN and doesn’t break the system in the slightest.

As for assuming that troops will always adopt the most advantageous formation.... read the thread!
ECW is all about enthusiastic amateurs, and professionals trained in various different systems, and about trying to STOP your troops doing whatever they want.
If you’ve read all that, and given it consideration... why the heck would you then assume that these guys will automatically and successfully adopt the right formation?

DBN already recognises this by making the player roll to form square.
Because square might be the most advantageous formation, but you can’t avoid the basic fact that sometimes they didn’t get it right.

If soldiers always did the right thing they wouldn't NCOs and Officers shouting at them. Of course sometimes they do the right thing despite the NCOs and Officers.
Perhaps the quality ratings for the classes can affect whether they automatically do the right thing or not?

Paul wrote: ↑Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:15 pm Of course a lot of destroyed hedging probably dated from the period of enclosure but something approaching 200000 miles of hedge were planted during the Medieval and immediate post Medieval period.

Thank you for that, Paul - I must confess I had no idea there was that much hedgerow around in the 1640s, having been taught at school that our countryside was almost entirely the product of the enclosure acts. Of course, 200,000 miles might not be massive in the context of the whole of England and Wales.....