The Loose Association of Wargamers

Hi Mark, 2 questions re the RA in 11th Armoured Division. They should be 13th RHA (Honourable Artillery Company) listed as AOS 74 and equipped with Sextons, and 151 Field Regiment RA (Ayrshire Yeomanry). AOS 76 and equipped with 25 pounders. All the printed (Taylor, Fortin) and online sources I can find support that.

So who owns this one then? An 11AD Sexton 'Hannibal' marked 76....



The carrier behind has AoS &7(?)6, with a 30 calibre MG on the front.
The original is in the IWM Collection & the rear is dated 22/09/1944 https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205202531

Secondly Armoured OP's in 11AD, tanks or Universal carriers, or both? Delaforce mentions Sherman OPs for both regiments (& he should know), but did they have carrier AOP's too? I've also found a May 1945 view of the HAC on parade with a Cromwell presumably as either command tank or AOP, although that postdates re-equipment with Comets, which might have something to do with it. (It's in my copy of Delaforce's book).

Unrelated to that question but a nice shot of a Universal Carrier AOP in use with an armoured division AT Regiment (AOS 77). If you blow up the photo, which you can do on the IWM link, there's a 74 AOS marking on the leading Sherman and 6? with underlining or the AOS on the second carrier.too. A really mixed bunch!



Original again from IWM. From Operation Goodwood 18th July 1944. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205202410

SP Arty Regts of armoured divisions always had 76 and the towed had 74, so those belong to 13 RHA. Dunno why it was that way round, but 7 Armoured Div, Gds Armoured Div and 4th Canadian Armoured Div definitely all used 76 for their SP regiment (I've just googled to check if my memory was faulty). I'm away from my books at the mo, but I distinctly remember having this conversation before.

13 RHA definitely used Sherman OPs and the Troop Commander/FOO's tanks retained the 75mm armament (Patrick Delaforce told me that himself). I don't have the battery War Establishment to hand, but each battery had a number of OP Carriers and/or Halftracks acting as Section command vehicles, Battery/Troop/Section radio rear-links and backup OPs. The Battery Commander and Battery Gun Position Officer (GPO) would typically have unarmed OP tanks, while each Troop Commander would have an armed OP tank and the Troop GPO would have a couple of OP Halftracks or Carriers.

Thanks Mark. The AOS makes sense, but the books are then wrong! Fortin is, anyway for & 7AD and 11AD, I didn't check the rest. Taylor just has both as Field Regiment, RA. I'll put a 76 on my AOP carrier then.

I was trying to follow the RA 1939-45 site, which is based on the appropriate WE's, but they aren't quite clear regarding the number and purpose of UC's.

Delaforce mentions OP Shermans for the Ayrshire Yeomanry too, which at the least still carried machine guns, since he describes an action in which the OP tank brasses up the Germans with MG fire.

Etranger wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:53 pm Thanks Mark. The AOS makes sense, but the books are then wrong! Fortin is, anyway for & 7AD and 11AD, I didn't check the rest. Taylor just has both as Field Regiment, RA. I'll put a 76 on my AOP carrier then.

I was trying to follow the RA 1939-45 site, which is based on the appropriate WE's, but they aren't quite clear regarding the number and purpose of UC's.

Delaforce mentions OP Shermans for the Ayrshire Yeomanry too, which at the least still carried machine guns, since he describes an action in which the OP tank brasses up the Germans with MG fire.

Yes, it rings a bell. I seem to remember discussing the fact that a lot of books had them the wrong way round.

Yes, Troop Commander/FOOs almost always had live 75mm guns. There are several accounts of FOOs joining in shoots with their 75mm guns and there was a memorable duel at Herouville on the Orne Canal, between an OP tank belonging to one of the Priest-equipped batteries of 3 Inf Div and a PzIV of 21 Panzer Division.

OP tanks belonging to 7th Armoured Division had 75mm-armed Cromwells as the Troop Commanders' OP tanks, while the Battery Commanders/GPOs had dummy-gunned Shermans. Most others used Shermans, again with dummy guns for BCs/GPOs and 75mm for TCs, though the Canadians tended to use dummy-gunned Rams in the BC/GPO slot.

I've dug out the WE for Sexton batteries and the only Carriers mentioned are three 'Slave Battery' Carriers in each Battery (Loyds with batteries and generator for starting vehicles). There are piles of Radio Halftracks however, and I've come across examples of the halftracks sometimes being replaced/supplemented by Carriers.

Something else worth remembering is that two tanks in each Armoured Regt HQ were designated as 'OP Tanks'. These retained their armament, but had some ammo racks removed to accommodate an extra radio set that could be used by attached FOOs. The FOO would replace the usual tank commander and his signaller would replace the loader.

The 6? underlined on the 2nd carrier indicates an Army level unit ?

Wg Cdr Luddite wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:12 pm The 6? underlined on the 2nd carrier indicates an Army level unit ?

Possibly a machine gun battalion? AOS 64 IIRC

Wg Cdr Luddite wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:12 pm The 6? underlined on the 2nd carrier indicates an Army level unit ?

Yes, underlining would indicate an Army unit. I'm not seeing it though when I zoom in.

The Shermans are interesting - the lead one has '74' with a battery marking immediately above, indicating the towed artillery regiment of an armoured division. Note also the .50 Cal AAMGs that they 'never' fitted. Going by the gliders in the background they're probably pictured at Ranville.

AT Regiments used OP vehicles for the Battery and Troop Commanders. The M10 batteries would typically use OP tanks such as Crusaders (Stuart Jalopies later), while the towed batteries would use Carriers, Halftracks or Scout Cars. As Valentine 17pdrs appeared they would typically use Valentine XIs.

Etranger wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:07 am Unrelated to that question but a nice shot of a Universal Carrier AOP in use with an armoured division AT Regiment (AOS 77). If you blow up the photo, which you can do on the IWM link, there's a 74 AOS marking on the leading Sherman and 6? with underlining or the AOS on the second carrier.too. A really mixed bunch!



Original again from IWM. From Operation Goodwood 18th July 1944. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205202410

'RG' is the Troop Commander's ride for 'G' Troop of the AT Regt. The lower-left quadrant is coloured (red on a blue square), indicating the 3rd Battery - G, H & I Troops (J often replaced I to avoid confusion between the written letter I and numeral 1).