The Loose Association of Wargamers

Hi,

I'm going to be entering a Warhammer Ancient Battles V.2 Classical Tournament sometime next year and wanted to know if any of you guys out there still playing WAB thought of this list? (Boy do I miss the WAB Forum at this point in time!)

This is the second version of my list and I think I have struck a much better balance by dropping the Elite Legionaries and adding 11 Equites Alares- Upgraded to Guards (with a Legate to accompany them)

Also, I've beefed up the Palmyran Horse Archers to 9 and added a few Archers to each Archer Unit.
I would be very interested in any critique of the list- as I mentioned last time, it is a very long time since I played WAB V.2 and could easily be missing something.

I really do need help in balancing the list out

CHARACTERS: 163

ARMY GENERAL-
Hand Weapon/Light Armour/Shield/Throwing spear/Horse
Special Rules- Army General


ARMY STANDARD BEARER- 117
Hand Weapon/Light Armour/Shield/Horse
Special Rules- Army Standard Bearer

LEGATE-
Hand Weapon/Light Armour/Shield/Horse 95 (Goes in with Equites Alares- Upgraded to Guards)

INFANTRY-
21 Seasoned Legionaries- Centurion (+1 Attack/+1 Ld/)/Standard/Musician 335
Hand Weapon/Light Armour/Large Shield/Heavy Throwing Spear
21 Seasoned Legionaries- Centuri0n (+1 Attack/+1/+1 Ld/)/Standard/Musician 335
Hand Weapon/Light Armour/Large Shield/Heavy Throwing Spear
21 Seasoned Legionaries- Centurion/ (+1 Attack/+1LD) Ld/)Standard/Musician 335
Hand Weapon/Light Armour/Large Shield/Heavy Throwing Spear
12 Archers 120
Bow
Special Rules- Light Infantry
12 Archers 120
Bow
Special Rules- Light Infantry

CAVALRY
11 Equites Alares- Upgraded to Guards (WS4/BS4/+4pts) 372
Hand Weapon/Light Armour/Shield/Javelins/Throwing spear
Special Rules- Light Cavalry/Drilled/(Guards)

ARTILLERY-
Heavy bolt Thrower- 52
4 Crew (1 extra)
Heavy bolt Thrower-
4 Crew (1 extra)
52

ALLIES: PALMYRAN-
12 Cataphracts- 486
Hand Weapon/Cataphract Armour/Kontos/Barding
Special Rules- Cataphracts (actually Shock Cavalry because of Barding)

9 Horse Palyran Archers- 216
Hand Weapon/Composite Bow
Special Rules- Light Cavalry/Parthian Shot/Feigned Flight

TOTAL- 2798 PTS

Difficult one as there's more than one version of the MiR 2.0 list!
The one i've got doesn't list Palmyrans as possible Allies. It lists: Arabs, Franks, Armenians and Goths!

So keep in mind that i'm working from a different list and have only played V1/1.5 in Competitions
I personally would rather take Equites Sagitarii than the Alares, but then I prefer a shooty army and the Alares are not going to stand up to Shock Cavalry or formed Infantry anyway.

That would allow you to take a single larger unit or two smaller units as well as in the list I have you would have enough points to get 16 of them.

Check your points too, 372 doesn't divide by 11...am I missing something?

To be honest the strength of your army is in the Legionaries so I might even dump the Roman Cavalry in total.
That would allow you to get another Legionairy unit and bump up the numbers in the two units of archers.

This would make your army very tough to break down and the Palmyrans could be used to plug any holes. (Giving them time to shake off the unreliable nature of allies).

Paul wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:53 pm Difficult one as there's more than one version of the MiR 2.0 list!
The one i've got doesn't list Palmyrans as possible Allies. It lists: Arabs, Franks, Armenians and Goths!

In the official WAB V.2 Armies of Antiquity lists?

Paul wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:53 pm So keep in mind that i'm working from a different list and have only played V1/1.5 in Competitions
I personally would rather take Equites Sagitarii than the Alares, but then I prefer a shooty army and the Alares are not going to stand up to Shock Cavalry or formed Infantry anyway.

Yeah, its normally WAB 1.5 for me too. I'm a a bit out of my depth with AoA V.2

The idea for the three Cavalry units is for the Palmyran Cataphracts to come forward as would an infantry unit but with more speed, the Equites Alares (Guards) to work their way around the flanks with one or both units being covered by the Horse Archers. That's the plan anyway and i'm unlikely to get a shot at trying the list out until the event- wooden spoon here I come

Paul wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:53 pm Check your points too, 372 doesn't divide by 11...am I missing something?

Damn! You're right! It should come to 341pts for 11 Equites Alares (Guards). I can drop some archers or the extra crew from the bolt throwers

Paul wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:53 pm To be honest the strength of your army is in the Legionaries so I might even dump the Roman Cavalry in total.
That would allow you to get another Legionairy unit and bump up the numbers in the two units of archers.

Definitely worth considering. If you dumped the cavalry would you be tempted to take Elite Legionaries so they can be Drilled and Stubborn (possibly Veteran too?). Drilled would allow them to protect the flanks in light of there being little by way of Cavalry? Stubborn for that extra bit of flanks protection? Expensive points wise but probably necessary if I have no cavalry?

Or maybe two units of 9 Palmyran Horse Archers, to threaten any cavalry on my flanks? They're not quite full Nomad Cavalry but do are Light Cavalry, Feigned Flight and Parthian Shot

Paul wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:53 pm This would make your army very tough to break down and the Palmyrans could be used to plug any holes. (Giving them time to shake off the unreliable nature of allies).

Argh! i forgot about the "don't roll a one" Allies and Mercenaries rule!

I look forward to hearing if you have any more tips.

Cheers

Yeah the lists I have might be v1.5
Definitely worth double checking your lists to make sure the points totals are right the Palmyran Cats are coming in at 40.5 pts each?

You're limited to 25% Allies so without dumping the Cataphracts you can't take any more Horse Archers (although if you've over pointed the cats you might be able to get another Horse Archer or two ).

Other than that I would probably keep the Cats if you're losing the the Alares. Another Horse Archer Unit would encourage you to throw them into the enemy and probably just lose them for very little return? The Cataphracts can "lurk" in a menacing way and might force your opponents to fixate on them a bit However if you're playing for a draw the horse archers might hold up the enemy advance for a turn or two providing they don't have better melee cavalry in reach.

Yes to upgrading the Legion to Elite. Unless Cavalry have become more lethal in v.2 then anything other than a lot of Shock Cavalry may well just bounce off of formed, well armed foot. In my first competition I threw a unit of Mercenary Milites away on such a unit, forgetting that they didn't have the full vim and vigour of proper Norman Knights

Paul wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:54 pm Yeah the lists I have might be v1.5
Definitely worth double checking your lists to make sure the points totals are right the Palmyran Cats are coming in at 40.5 pts each?

Oh boy! Back to the drawing board!

Paul wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:54 pm You're limited to 25% Allies so without dumping the Cataphracts you can't take any more Horse Archers (although if you've over pointed the cats you might be able to get another Horse Archer or two ).

Yeah, the plan was to dump the Cataphracts.

Paul wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:54 pm Other than that I would probably keep the Cats if you're losing the the Alares. Another Horse Archer Unit would encourage you to throw them into the enemy and probably just lose them for very little return? The Cataphracts can "lurk" in a menacing way and might force your opponents to fixate on them a bit However if you're playing for a draw the horse archers might hold up the enemy advance for a turn or two providing they don't have better melee cavalry in reach.

The more I think about it the more I'm thinking of dumping the Cataphracts. I "suffer" from not really being a tournament player. My armies are usually historically based. I couldn't resist the call of playing in a WAB tournament though. It's very much a Salad Days thing. I used to love playing in the WAB campaign weekends in Lenton, the one day campaigns in Newark and hot Lead and Cold Steel st Gripping Beast HQ.

Paul wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:54 pm Yes to upgrading the Legion to Elite. Unless Cavalry have become more lethal in v.2 then anything other than a lot of Shock Cavalry may well just bounce off of formed, well armed foot. In my first competition I threw a unit of Mercenary Milites away on such a unit, forgetting that they didn't have the full vim and vigour of proper Norman Knights

Cavalry are much more manoeuvrable in V.2 and cannot be march blocked by infantry so are more deadly in that respect. The AoA V.2 lists lack the flavour of the supplements and are quite vanilla. The idea was to rewrite the points system and to bring the supplements into line with one another as they were rereleased. Obviously that never happened when GW gave up on WAB.

I'm going to put together another list- heavily infantry based and see where that gets me. I am a little wary of not including a decent amount of quality cavalry as I'm almost certainly going to come up against a Macedonian/Successor/Parthian army of some description which might just leave the Legionaries soaking up casualties. They may not break, but it would be a bit of a boring game.

Thanks again Paul. New list incoming soon.

Shame you don't live closer, i'd let you give me a beating in preparation for the competition

The problem now is that I really want to play some WAB

Paul wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:50 pm Shame you don't live closer, i'd let you give me a beating in preparation for the competition

I can't safely be in a public space at present so i may as well be on the Moon

I reached a bit of a low recently so decided to build a few of armies up (continuing Early Byzantines- also Sassanids for a show and putting together an army for one of Tim Haslam's WAB events for next year as goals. If it's not safe for me to make it then so be it- the main thing is that my energies are put back into some brushwork etc.

Paul wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:50 pm The problem now is that I really want to play some WAB

You should! And enter Tim's Classical event too

Warhammer Ancient Battles V.2 Middle Imperial Romans 1800pts- Imperial Field Army-
List 4

CHARACTERS- Up to 20% (Max of 560pts) (375)
CAVALRY- Up to 50% (Max of 1400pts) (514)
INFANTRY- At Least 33% (At Least 924 pts) (1759)
ARTILLERY- One Model Every 800 points (156)
ALLIES- Up to 25% (0)

CHARACTERS: 163
ARMY GENERAL-
Hand Weapon/Light Armour/Shield/Throwing spear/Horse
Special Rules- Army General

ARMY STANDARD BEARER- 117
Hand Weapon/Light Armour/Shield/Horse
Special Rules- Army Standard Bearer

LEGATE-
Hand Weapon/Light Armour/Shield/Horse 95
(Goes in with Equites Alares- Upgraded to Guards)

INFANTRY-
21 Seasoned Legionaries- Centurian (+1 Attack/+1 Ld/)/Standard/Musician 335
Hand Weapon/Light Armour/Large Shield/Heavy Throwing Spear

18 Seasoned Legionaries- Centurian (+1 Attack/+1 Ld/)/Standard/Musician 290
Hand Weapon/Light Armour/Large Shield/Heavy Throwing Spear

18 Seasoned Legionaries- Centurian/ (+1 Attack/+1 Ld/)Standard/Musician 290
Hand Weapon/Light Armour/Large Shield/Heavy Throwing Spear

18 Elite Legionaries- Centurian/ (+1 Attack/+1 Ld/)Standard/Musician 434
Hand Weapon/Light Armour/Large Shield/Heavy Throwing Spear
Special Rules- Drilled/Stubborn/Veteran

14 Archers- 140
Bow
Special Rules- Light Infantry

14 Archers- 140
Bow
Special Rules- Light Infantry

13 Archers - 130
Bow
Special Rules- Light Infantry


ARTILLERY:

Heavy bolt Thrower (1 extra crew)- 52
Heavy bolt Thrower (1 extra crew)- 52
Heavy bolt Thrower (1 extra crew)- 52

CAVALRY-
11 Equites Alares- Upgraded to Guards (WS4/BS4/+4pts) L/S/M 356 Hand Weapon/Light Armour/Shield/Javelins/Throwing spear
Special Rules- Light Cavalry/Drilled/(Guards)

9 Horse Archers- 153
Specical Rules- light Cavalry


Total Points 2794

Basic premises of the army:

Legionaries:
I have taken Tim's advice and knocked down the size of most of the Legionary units to 18. The unit 21 strong od Seasoned Legionaries will stand on one flank with the hope that the extra numbers will help them hold against any attackers. The two units of 18 strong Seasoned Legionaries will hold the centre.
The Elite, being drilled, Stubborn and Veteran ought to be able to handle the flank without the Cavalry by manoeuvring (Drilled and Stubborn (as a lat resort!)

Archers:
I've beefed up the numbers of Archers to 14, 14 and 13 respectively) so they may act as a skirmish screen or be placed to shower important enemy formations with arrows. That combined with the Torsion Engines/Bolt Throwers ought to be enough shooting for an infantry heavy army.

Cavalry:
The Legate will be positioned to lead the Equites Alares- Upgraded to Guards who are Drilled - with infantry being unable to March Block Cavalry in WAB V.2 this makes them very manoeuvrable and a real threat to the enemies flank.

The crappy Horse Archers will act as a disposable screen for the Equites Alares (Guards)

Characters:
The Army General and Standard Bearer will do their usual thing and float about behind the army adding leadership where needed.

I would very much like to hear what you guys think again

Am I missing any "tricks" here?

I think I may be 4 points over so I would just drop an Archer from on the the Archer units

I can't really see anything significant that is a real weakness.
In period you're likely to be able to do well against Infantry heavy opponents.
Armies heavy in Skirmish Cavalry will be very irritating for you, but unless they have the room to sweep around behind, I can't see them being more than that.
Heavy Cavalry Armies might be able to sweep away your cavalry and play for a winning draw, depending on how the games are scored.
Downsides are that you are essentially a defensive army and if any games are scored by taking distant objectives you might struggle.

However you can throw most of that out as WAB is not something like Armati, where you can tell who is going to win after set up
With the right tactics and luck anyone can win, there aren't any super armies from the same supplement.

Paul wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:51 am I can't really see anything significant that is a real weakness.
In period you're likely to be able to do well against Infantry heavy opponents.
Armies heavy in Skirmish Cavalry will be very irritating for you, but unless they have the room to sweep around behind, I can't see them being more than that.
Heavy Cavalry Armies might be able to sweep away your cavalry and play for a winning draw, depending on how the games are scored.
Downsides are that you are essentially a defensive army and if any games are scored by taking distant objectives you might struggle.

However you can throw most of that out as WAB is not something like Armati, where you can tell who is going to win after set up
With the right tactics and luck anyone can win, there aren't any super armies from the same supplement.

Thanks Paul. It's difficult not to be defensive with Middle Imperial Romans unless you take a number of Alares units, which is a possibility for the future if needed.

Hopefully my three units of Light Archers might go some way to alleviate some or the skirmish heavy armies. We shall have to see!

Could be a , but with my tactical nous, more then likely a