The Loose Association of Wargamers

Today's game pitted the Late Romans against an invading barbarian force of Huns, Goths & Sarmatians. I commanded the Romans & a pal took control of the terrifying barbaric horde.
The game used our own rules - 'A Tribute of Spears' & we believe they handled this large game (25 units a side) in a timely manner (about 3 leisurely hours) to produce a game rich in excitement & tension & with an amount of complexity we felt comfortable with.
The battlefield:


Open space but with plenty of wooded areas for Goth warband to lurk.
Objectives:
There were two victory points awarded for holding 3 objectives - a wagon lager, a Roman villa & a Roman watchtower:







Additionally, a victory point was awarded for each enemy unit broken:


These were recorded using simple black stones.

Initiative was diced for & troops placed on the battlefield:







To activate the troops a dice for each unit was thrown with 3-6 allowing activation:


This simple mechanism caused much drama as in several turns, both commanders were unable to execute daring & brilliant manoeuvres due to the numbers of low dice.

Both sides were keen to come to grips:









Casualties began to mount , both from missile fire & melee:









The Romans generally fought well but the numerous Goth foot archers & Hun mounted bows took a toll.



As numbers plummeted, there were catastrophic drops in morale & several Roman units left the field:



Ultimately, though the barbarians suffered considerable casualties also, the Romans retreated, defeated.

Some POIs:
1. The Goth Warbands are not overly effective. They're large but have limited combat & shooting dice, so something stronger will probably trigger their fragile morale......unless.....you put them in difficult terrain where they fight better infantry as equals or you place a Bow unit in front. These shoot at a charging enemy, then retire through the WB ranks leaving the WB on more equal terms.
2. Hun & Steppe mounted bow units. Unlike the Roman equivalent who rightly avoid melee, these chaps get a good amount of combat dice &, as elites, even a bonus dice. They're unarmoured so no 'armour saves' but they can inflict damage before they get decimated.
3. Warlords. These army commanders can attach to units & add their combat dice, which makes a formidable unit. They can also fight on their own. Bleda, the Hunnish commander, opportunistically charged with an infantry unit, adding his dice to an unbeatable total.
4. Skirmish screen. A charging Hun unit tried to crush such a screen (compulsory) but lost several unlucky casualties.


donald

In the game above and another, fairly similar clash, a problem has arisen.

In both games, my opponents have massed their various bow units to create a highly effective but unhistorical "arrow storm" effect that has largely given them both games.

I hurry to state that my defeats aren't the issue - it's the OOP (out of period) means that I'm concerned over.

The use of missile weapons in the period was quite common & it seems they were fairly effective, at least until the heavier troops closed with the foot & horse archers doing the shooting. My rules try to allow this. However, the massing of 3 and 4 bow units means you get something like Agincourt or Crecy. The attacking Romans are decimated before they can close.

What would be the most effective way to stop such an OOP tactic? I need a plausible & period appropriate rule that allows archery to be fairly effective but stops massed formations.

donald

Why would you want to stop your opponent using a tactic that clearly works?

Lovely looking game. I only recently said to Tim H that I rather wish you'd stop posting photos of your gorgeous armies.

E

Generally speaking massed archery was not terribly effective in period. It was a supporting arm other than for the Sasanians.

Arrows aren't hugely effective against armour, and supply was often an issue (which was why Parthan baggage camels with resupplies of arrows were a shock to the Romans at Carrhae.)

For most armies, archery was what you tried to do before combat to weaken your opponent, it wasn't a battle winner by itself.

DougM wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 6:00 pm Generally speaking massed archery was not terribly effective in period. It was a supporting arm other than for the Sasanians.

Arrows aren't hugely effective against armour, and supply was often an issue (which was why Parthan baggage camels with resupplies of arrows were a shock to the Romans at Carrhae.)

For most armies, archery was what you tried to do before combat to weaken your opponent, it wasn't a battle winner by itself.

Yes, I totally agree, Doug. And that is how my fantastic home written rules should work. Hits on '6's followed by armour saves.
But when you put 3 units firing, & get 36 dice you can do lots of damage, unhistorically.
I can just ask my pals not to but good rules encourage the use of historical tactics rather than just ban things....or so I'm told.

donald

Two things you could try, mate, and see how they go:

1. Only let archers fire directly to their front- that will somewhat reduce multi-unit pile-ons, unless the archers want to open a flank to the enemy by wheeling to face a target.

2. Increase the number of archers needed to create a hit dice, and round down the left-overs. So if a unit (of 12 figures?) creates 12 hit dice, reduce it so that the unit only creates four or six dice.

So they may still cause casualties, but you shouldn't find yourself re-fighting Agincourt every game.

Dal.

Spanner wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 9:20 pm Two things you could try, mate, and see how they go:

1. Only let archers fire directly to their front- that will somewhat reduce multi-unit pile-ons, unless the archers want to open a flank to the enemy by wheeling to face a target.

2. Increase the number of archers needed to create a hit dice, and round down the left-overs. So if a unit (of 12 figures?) creates 12 hit dice, reduce it so that the unit only creates four or six dice.

So they may still cause casualties, but you shouldn't find yourself re-fighting Agincourt every game.

Dal.

1. sounds feasible. I allow a 22.5 degree arc of fire at the moment. But you can't move & fire in the same turn. So a "straight ahead" mechanism will make wheeling & assembling huge killing zones a bit more problematic.

I'll start throwing dice & get out my calculator to see how 2. works out. In the past, I've found if you tweak numbers, it can have unexpected repercussions elsewhere.

I *do* like rule writing but it's a lot like baking a cake. The exterior should look nice but it's what's inside that really counts.

donald

You could perhaps turn your problem on its head? For instance, reduce the effect of shooting just a little, but increase the morale effect of being shot at....."-1 taking casualties from ranged weapons", if that's how your rules work. It might encourage players to spread their missile troops along their front to get the greatest benefit.

This sounds like the same argument you hear about 'massed batteries' being an anachronism prior to 17XX. Historians may have decided that the massing of batteries hadn't become a recognised tactic prior to a certain lunch time on a particular day in 17 blah blah, but that doesn't mean that it never happened before that. If you can see the enemy massing to attack you in a particular place, why wouldn't you take all necessary steps to disrupt the attack - possibly with your guns or archers? That's the point though...'if you can see'......wargamers can see all, generals on the spot probably can't.

Now, ask me about pikes.

Iain

Morale? In my rules? No. We don't do morale (apart from running away after X casualties taken). But I'm flattered you think I'm that sophisticated.

I would argue that although a leader of any ability may see the benefits of massing fire, the men actually doing the shooting wouldn't.
" What do you mean I should ignore those close guys looking at us in an angry manner & shoot those other guys further away?"
(said in a German or Hunnic language, which may be the same thing).

So, I will trial the shooting straight ahead idea but also a target priority rule that you must shoot at the enemy unit closest to you.

donald (Pike the fish, the weapon or the character in Dad's Army?)

Dad's Army? What was his name?