The Loose Association of Wargamers

.....which in this case (early WW2 Far East) probably means RMD and Etranger, but others do feel free to chip in, please.

1) Would Indian battalions (as in made up of, not merely shipped out from) in Malaya in '41/'42 have had carrier sections, and if so, which models? This is for a battalion of 11th Sikhs.

2) Was the AEC "Dorchester" used in this campaign, or was it too late into production? (Probably would have been called the Raffles if it had been!)

3) Would it be historically accurate to attach an Australian 2-pdr to said Indian battalion, or would it have been just a normal RA unit? What vehicle(s) would have pulled a gun of this size (am I right in thinking that portee 2-pdrs were a uniquely Western Desert thing)?

Ta muchly.

BaronVonWreckedoften wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 10:22 am
1) Would Indian battalions (as in made up of, not merely shipped out from) in Malaya in '41/'42 have had carrier sections, and if so, which models? This is for a battalion of 11th Sikhs.

In theory yes, but in practice not all were so equipped. All the photos from Malaya that I've seen show Universal Carriers, but mostly in use with the Australians. There probably were some earlier models there too. I've seen references to use of the Mark IV tankette somewhere, which was actually an earlier version of a MMG carrier, rather than a light tank. Light trucks would have been used as substitutes (probably the ubiquitous 15cwt Bedford or Morris, judging by photos). There may also have been carriers in the various divisional cavalry regiments (there weren't any tanks!).

The Indians also used their wheeled Indian Pattern Carriers but how many, and which units had them isn't known AFAIK. The only photograph I'm aware of that shows an IPC in Malaya is one being used by joyriding Australian troops. RMD will have more detail.

https://www.britishmilitaryhistory.co.u ... 1-1945.pdf

BaronVonWreckedoften wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 10:22 am
2) Was the AEC "Dorchester" used in this campaign, or was it too late into production? (Probably would have been called the Raffles if it had been!)

In production by 1941 but highly unlikely to have got to the Far East, being as it was intended for use at Armoured Brigade or divisional level. I dont think 7AB in Burma had any. A few made it to OZ, but AFAIK never saw operational use.https://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/ ... hester.php

BaronVonWreckedoften wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 10:22 am
3) Would it be historically accurate to attach an Australian 2-pdr to said Indian battalion, or would it have been just a normal RA unit? What vehicle(s) would have pulled a gun of this size (am I right in thinking that portee 2-pdrs were a uniquely Western Desert thing)?

I don't know enough about the T, O & E of the Indian Army in Malaya, but for the usual 'British' motor battalion 1942 pattern there would have been 2 pounder ATGs (later 6 pounder) in the support company, and for an infantry company then the possibility is of a section (2 guns) or a troop (4 guns) from the divisional AT battery/regiment. https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=180297 for the North African version. https://www.britishmilitaryhistory.co.u ... 1-1945.pdf

I've got no idea what the Far Eastern version of a motor battalion was (or even if there was one, although Gary provides the information for where to look!). There weren't any ATGs allocated to the Motor Battalion in the 1941 ME table. Infantry battalions as above.

It's highly unlikely that a lone gun from another Brigade would be attached, even though there were occasions when Indian units were attached to Australian forces (Brigades under command, not sections!). Given the shortages of equipment in Malaya, there may not have been enough ATGs to go around.

A Portee simply means that the gun is loaded onto the back of the allocated tow, again usually a 15cwt or 30 cwt truck of some form or other. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port%C3%A9e_(military) There was nothing magical about it's use in the desert, the same thing was done in France in 1940, particularly with the 25mm Hotchkiss gun that they used there, as it was structurally too weak to tow at speed.

Sticking the 2 pounder in the back of a truck was easy enough & didn't need specific modification, although that could be done too. http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3756 shows the Morris CS8 version , and https://www.o5m6.de/western/Portees.php#morris_bofors shows the use of one with a 37mm Bofors, as used in the desert.

If you mean the modifications for firing from the back of the truck, then that was less common, and was mostly used in the desert. It wasn't unique to the British, the Germans did the same thing, with lots of weapons. We just don't call them portees!

To bring it back to your question, any one of the plethora of trucks in use in Malaya could have been used. Morris, Bedford, Chevrolet and Ford trucks were all to be seen. All the 2 pounders that I've seen photographed there were already emplaced on the ground.

I found this whilst looking around, it's a handy guide to British Commonwealth establishments. https://www.britishmilitaryhistory.co.u ... attalions/ This is the 1941 Indian Infantry Bn https://www.britishmilitaryhistory.co.u ... 1-1945.pdf

I think Etranger has already covered the main points, but;

1) Evidence is scarce, but the two Indian battalions in Hong Kong had Carrier Platoons (tracked), as did some battalions in Burma, with at least one battalion using Wheeled Carriers. I've got nothing specific on the Indian battalions in Malaya though, sorry. The Indian 3rd Cavalry arrived with some Wheeled Carriers, but the regiment was used as infantry and the Carriers remained on the dockside until being commandeered by the Australians. The regiment also had Marmon-Herrington Armoured Cars, but they seem to have remained unused until being commandeered by the Japanese and then the INA.

2) I've not seen any evidence of the Dorchester/Raffles being used East of Suez.

3) There were some Indian-Australian groupings in Malaya, such as 'Westforce', which consisted of the 26th Australian Bde (8 Aus Div) and 9th & 45th Indian Bdes (9 Ind Div), so never say never, though I can't find any groupings below brigade level. 11th Indian Division had the 80th Anti-Tank Regt RA (2 Bty, 215 Bty, 272 Bty & 273 Bty) under command, though 272 Bty and 273 Bty were eventually transferred to 9th Indian Division, which lacked an organic AT Regt. As Etranger says, 2pdrs were routinely 'porteed' by 15cwt or 30cwt trucks, though fought dismounted (as far as I can tell).

RMD wrote: ↑Tue Mar 22, 2022 11:57 am
2) I've not seen any evidence of the Dorchester/Raffles being used East of Suez.

1st Australian Armoured Division received 7, of which there are 2 survivors in various states of preservation. As 1st AAD never left Australian shores, it's highly unlikely that any Dorchesters did. They don't seem to have popped up on any of the Australian battles in the SW Pacific.

I can't imagine that they would be much fun to be inside in the heat and humidity of a tropical summer. Bad enough in the dry heat of the Western Desert.

Etranger wrote: ↑Tue Mar 22, 2022 12:09 pm

RMD wrote: ↑Tue Mar 22, 2022 11:57 am
2) I've not seen any evidence of the Dorchester/Raffles being used East of Suez.

1st Australian Armoured Division received 7, of which there are 2 survivors in various states of preservation. As 1st AAD never left Australian shores, it's highly unlikely that any Dorchesters did. They don't seem to have popped up on any of the Australian battles in the SW Pacific.

I can't imagine that they would be much fun to be inside in the heat and humidity of a tropical summer. Bad enough in the dry heat of the Western Desert.

Sorry, yes you're quite right. I was thinking more of the theatres of war and forgot Oz itself.