The Loose Association of Wargamers

Could the cognoscenti on here tell me how prevalent the use of these carriers was by 4th Indian Division in N Africa, and 9th Indian Division in Malaya in the late '40 to early '41 period (see the Perry WW2 British list, item WW50)? The Mk1 and Mk2 both fit the time frame, but I would be interested in any photos and/or first hand accounts of their use.

As I understand it, they were supposed to be the Indian equivalent of the Universal Carrier, but wheeled instead of tracked, and were typically armed with a Boys and a Bren. DId they have a radio?

Supplementary questions -
1) What percentage of gunners were Indian, as opposed to European and would they have manned anti-tank batteries (specifically 2-pdrs, and then later 6-pdrs)?

2) I always thought that, at platoon and company levels, there was always one British officer and one Indian officer (Lieutenant/Jemadar or Captain/Subedar), the latter acting as liaison with the non-English-speaking ORs, but apparently this was done away with at platoon level, post-WW1 and the Indian officer was on his own. Is that right?

3) Did any Indians in Sikh regiments wear steel helmets, or were they all be-turbanned?

Thanks for any answers.

Mark will have much more but pictures of IPCs in general are rare as Hen's teeth & particularly in Malaya. Judging by pictures, some if not all were equipped with radio, the aerials being fairly prominent.

If they were equipped with Boys (ATRs) for you smutty types, did they have Boys' wallahs?

It's been a while since I researched this stuff, but here's what I remember:

IMPORTANT NOTE: WHEELED ARMOURED CARRIERS (INDIA PATTERN) WERE CAVALRY RECCE VEHICLES!!! They were NOT, despite the name, used as 'Carriers' in the traditional sense. Think of them as Light Recce Cars, such as the Humber LRC and Morris LRC. Indian infantry battalions used tracked Carriers like everyone else. I have only ever found one reference to a single Indian infantry battalion using Wheeled Carriers (during the Retreat from Burma and they may simply have nicked them from a Rangoon depot on their way west).

The jury's out on whether Mk I Wheeled Carriers (which were based on the Guy Wheeled Armoured Carrier and looked very much like a Universal Carrier on wheels) ever saw service. It seems that they were probably prototypes, but later (with various improvements) became the Mk IV Wheeled Carrier.

All the books in my collection say that Mk II Wheeled Carriers didn't appear until 1942, which meant that the Wheeled Carriers in Malaya and the Retreat from Burma MUST have therefore been Mk Is... However, it seems that assumption was wrong (there is at least one photo of an Aussie Mk II in Singapore) and Mk II Carriers went into production in 1941 and possibly even earlier.

Mk II Carriers were definitely used by 10th Indian Division in Africa - there are some very famous photos of clearly-marked vehicles. The 4th Division Cavalry (Central India Horse) are recorded as still using them as mortar-carriers in Italy, so it does certainly indicate that they were using them in the more conventional recce role in N Africa. I don't know about the 5th & 8th Divisions, though.

The 10th (The Guides Cavalry (Queen Victoria's Own Frontier Force)) were the recce regiment for 9th Indian Division in Malaya. I've got nothing specific for them to hand but I seem to remember that they were equipped with Wheeled Carriers, but were ordered to hand them over to the Australians.

The 11th Indian Division had the 3rd Cavalry as its recce element. They were equipped with Marmon-Herrington armoured cars and never left the confines of Singapore.

Wheeled Armoured Carriers largely fell out of use by late 1943 and were generally only used for internal security work in the Middle East and India (these were increasingly Mk III and Mk IV Carriers and also included British units). However, some Mk II Carriers soldiered on in Italy and Burma as SP 3-inch mortar carriers for Indian cavalry regiments and as engineer recce vehicles and artillery OPs.

Aside from the mortar carriers and occasional engineer recce vehicles mentioned above, no Indian units are known to have used Wheeled Carriers in Burma after the retreat of 1942. However, 81 (West African) Recce Regiment used 'Light Recce Cars' of an unspecified type (this could simply mean Jeeps) and I've never been able to discover the TO&E for the Mechanised Wing of the 3rd Gwalior Lancers (XV Corps Recce Regt), so never say never...

Re Indian Gunners: They provided virtually all of the Light and Mountain Artillery Regiments in Indian formations, as well as the occasional Field, AT and LAA Regt. The British Army provided the vast majority of Field , AT & LAA Regts and all of the Medium and Heavy Regts. Indian infantry battalions in the Far East didn't have organic anti-tank platoons, so you wouldn't find any anti-tank guns there. I can't remember how they were organised in North Africa and Italy, but I assume that they would have had organic anti-tank platoons in Italy?

Any specific formations you're looking at?

Sorry, I had to rush off to an appointment. Where was I...?

2. I think this refers to the process of 'Indianisation' of the Indian Army - placing ethnically Indian King's Commissioned Officers (KCOs) in command of units. Oddly, they would still have Viceroy's Commissioned Officers (VCOs - Jemadars/Subedars or Jemadars/Rissaldars in cavalry units) under their command. A few units were 100% Indian-officered by the Japanese invasion of Burma (one such unit serving in Burma) and the proportion increased dramatically as the war went on. It was also the case that VCOs would take command of sub-units in extremis, though this was never a permanent arrangement and a KCO would be appointed to take command as soon as possible.

Note that regiments of the 'Indian States Forces' (i.e. the semi-independent princely states) often did things differently. Some had KCOs and/or VCOs seconded to them from the Indian Army, while some copied the Indian Army system with their own commissioning structure (both British and Indian).

3. Yes, all Sikh soldiers would ordinarily wear turbans rather than helmets (sometimes with a camouflage scrim-net over the turban), though Sikhs wearing AFV helmets or flying helmets was not unknown. That said, Sikhs were not allowed to serve in the Indian Parachute Regiment due to the turban/helmet issue. Remember that a lot of Indian units were polyglot, with races typically segregated by company/squadron/battery; e.g. a Punjabi Battalion might have a company each of Sikhs, Mahrattas (i.e. Hindus), Dogras (Muslims) and 'PM's (Punjabi Mussulmen - Muslims), or might have two or three companies of one particular race. In the case of company-sized independent units such as engineers or logistics, they tended to be segregated by platoon. Obviously, all sub-units of the 11th Sikhs were 100% Sikh and occasional battalions of other regiments were also 100% Sikh (e.g. the 1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4th Battalions of the 12th Frontier Force Regiment).

Assuming you're looking at Malaya, the Indians had the following artillery assets:

9th Indian Division:
88 Field Regt RA
272 Anti-Tank Battery RA, from 80 Anti-Tank Regt RA
The surviving elements were absorbed into 11th Indian Division at Singapore on 1st February 1942.

11th Indian Division:
137 Field Regt RA
155 Field Regt RA
80 Anti-Tank Regt RA (-) (2 Battery, 215 Battery, 273 Battery - 272 Battery detached to 9th Division and survivors re-absorbed on 1st Feb 1942 with the survivors of 273 Battery to create 272/273 Battery)
22 Mountain Regt IA (4 Battery, 7 Battery, 10 Battery & 21 Battery)
Survivors of 5 Field Regt RA and 88 Field Regt RA absorbed in Feb 1942

12th (Secunderabad) Independent Indian Infantry Brigade:
122 Field Regt RA

The 6th & 15th Indian Infantry Brigades had no organic artillery (though had attachments from the above formations from time to time).

III Indian Corps assets:
1 Heavy Anti-Aircraft Regt IA (3x Heavy Batteries with 3.7-inch Gun & 1x Light Battery with 40mm Bofors)

Equipment:
Field Regts had 18pdr or 25pdr (I don't know which, sorry)
Mountain Regts had 3.7-inch Mountain Howitzers (with wooden wheels)
80th AT Regt had Boehler 47mm guns (presumably captured Italian pieces, though the Dutch East Indies Army also used them)

So in Malaya the only Indian artillery appears to be 22 Mountain Regt and 1 Heavy AA Regt. The rest is all British.

RMD/Etranger - I have to say, you were my prime suspects on this one (and thank you for not letting me down).

My purpose for asking is that I have been looking into CoC in a big way recently (pauses to let sniggers subside)but wanted to do something different. There has been a rash of early Middle East and Singapore-era Far East games appearing recently, but it all seems to be either British or Australian. My next-door neighbour (a proud Scot) was born in the Raj and left with his family post-independence; he's always been intrigued by my wargaming, so the Argylls was an obvious choice (and I may go back to that one later), but I thought it might be interesting to do Indians, as they seem to be somewhat neglected. I'd noticed that both 4th and 9th Divisions had a battalion of 11th Sikhs on their roster and wondered if it was possible to create a common platoon, plus theatre-specific supports (to include a Viclers MMG, a 2-pdr A/T gun and an armoured car/light tank), that could do duty in both early campaigns.

Would I be right in assuming that, beyond personal/platoon weapons, the Indian Army was generally last in line for beefier equipment, vehicles etc?

That's the genesis of the idea, further comments/guffaws/insults welcome.

Well last in line for stuff less needed, so most modern tanks and at kit, as it was less essential (in fact several tankies accounts shows the preferring the m3 to the m4). Other kit was basically the same, singapore lost a lot, like dunkirk did, and for once standardisation worked on the replacement.

Although not 11th Sikhs, there would have been heaps of Sikhs in the 11th Indian Division as well, in all those Punjabi battalions: 5/2nd, 1/8th, 1/14th, 5/14th, 2/16th & 3/16th. I don't have an exact breakdown of the ethnicities, but most Punjabi battalions had at least one company of Sikhs and some were 100% Sikh (I do know that the 5/14th Punjab were 100% Pathan though).

2pdrs were very thin on the ground in Malaya. As mentioned, the Indians didn't have any AT guns apart from the Italian 47mm pieces supplied by the British 80 AT Regt RA. The Australian 4th AT Regt (8th Division) did have a single battery of them, however. They also had another battery of ex-Italian 47mm guns and a very large battery of French 75mm guns, (though without ammo). The two Malay Brigades had some 37mm Bofors AT guns.

Re light tanks - IIRC there was a unit called the 100th Independent Light Tank Sqn in Singapore equipped with some sort of Vickers Light Tank, but I don't think it did very much, if anything. There was also a squadron of Vickers Mk VI Lights from the 10th Hussars that went to Java (unless that's the same unit and I'm confused...?). I used to know this shit...

The Argylls and the Malay Armoured Car Squadron had Lanchesters in Malaya, but I'm not sure how much action they saw.

I don't think the Indian supply situation was any worse than anyone else, tbh. They tended to manufacture a lot of their kit, including weapons, in India. Some units in Malaya were still using Vickers-Berthier in lieu of Bren, though they looked very similar and no need to bust a gut trying to find models.

Re Vickers MGs - it's a source of great confusion as to who had them in the Indian Army and when. One pre-war garrison organisation of Indian Infantry Battalions included a whole company of Vickers MGs and some Gurkha battalions were still using this org in Malaya. However, the 9th and 11th Divisions don't seem to have done so. They also don't seem to have had divisional MG Battalions, so I'm guessing that each battalion had its own Vickers MG Platoon.

RMD wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:29 pm 80th AT Regt had Boehler 47mm guns (presumably captured Italian pieces, though the Dutch East Indies Army also used them)

Was this the 47/32 "elefantino"? If so, did the British add a gun shield and what was the ammo supply like? Presumably, the HE capability made it preferable to the 2-pdr?

Update: Interesting thread here on this subject - including quotes from Holmes (I assume it's that Richard).

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=158277

Yes, that's the fella. They didn't add guns-shields, so you can just use the Italian ones. No idea re ammo supply, but they did capture enormous quantities of them and the KNIL just up the road also had stocks.