Further dilemmas of an amateur tanker...

[Norman D. Landings]

Apparently, I can accomplish sod-all on this bloody project without asking you lot.
These Valentines & Crusader IIs - I’d like to paint them up for Italy/Sicily, because our 1/72 terrain is all European-ey.
(Ignore the keyboard spazz-out, there)
So... what colour were they, then? Plain old British Army Deep Bronze Green?
Were there camo patterns at that stage?
My googling is producing answers either so vague as to be useless (random tanks, many demonstrably not even British or in Italy) to so specific as to be useless (SCC 108/7 with gas paint patch).

Cheers, gents.

[Jeremy]

I went with the sand and green cammo effect. I always think it’s an interim theatre, so anything (within reason) goes

[Tim Hall]

Jeremy's camo scheme seems to be pretty standard. I have seen examples of one or two quite weird ones, but I'd go with Jeremy on this.

https://hobbymaster.com.au/tanks/world- ... orama.html

[Paul]

Mike Starmers comprehensive research article on British vehicles says this:
"April 1943 - G.O 1650 is cancelled by a new G.O with standardised drawings for certain type and classes of AFV and vehicles are decreed by the Camouflage Directorate including new colours for Tunisia , Sicily and Italy . Basic shade is ‘Light Mud’ with Black in standardised bold disruptive patterns for camouflage. Green seems to have been used too. There are indications that Light Mud was used as early as March 1943 in Tunisia . All ‘desert’ colours to be overpainted. Lend Lease vehicles used ‘Light Mud’ over US Olive Drab as an alternative. By late 1943 European colours are common. In May 1944 S.C.C. 15 Olive drab is introduced to replace all earlier schemes."

Sounds very much like the Shermy pictured in Tims link.

[Etranger]

No Crusaders or Valentines in Sicily or Italy I'm afraid. (As guntanks, a few might have turned up as OP tanks etc). Your best bet is Tunisia if you're looking for real examples in a 'Europeanish' setting.

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=395132 for some informed comments from Gary Kennedy & RMD.



Crusader II (edited) from Tunisia. The Red-White-Red RAC flash on the hull rear was only seen operationally on 1st Army units (ie not 8th Army).


Valentine in Tunisia. 1st or 8th Army. Looks like a recent arrival in theatre given how clean the tank is.


6 AD tanks in Tunisia. The command Sherman (2 aerials) on the right has the divisional insignia in an unusual spot.


1st Army Stuart.


A more typical Tunisian Valentine. The Bren gun on an AA mounting wasn't a common sight.

(Adding more interesting shots as I go!)

[Paul]

I think Valentines were in Sicily/Italy in significant numbers?

[Etranger]

No, Shermans, Shermans and more Shermans, leavened by Stuarts. There were Churchills in Italy from mid 1944. The Valentine based Bishop SPG was used in Sicily & possibly Italy though.

[Paul]

So this site is basically bollocks then, you'd have thought you could trust the internet ?
http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/g ... entine.php

[grizzlymc]

I'm certain there is a colour photo of a Crusader III in Italy having its 6 pdr pulled through.

[Etranger]

It's 'kind of' accurate in that the Valentine was around, but not as a gun tank.

However, in Sicily and Italy, they arrived in growing numbers. Despite this, the QF 2-pdr stayed the norm for most of the conflict, and, because of this, they were gradually phased out for secondary duties, or were converted for other tasks. Some were stationed in Gibraltar, Madagascar, Malta. In total, the 6th, 8th and 11th Armoured Divisions, as well as the 1st Polish division (trained in Scotland and deployed in Italy 1944-45), were mostly equipped with the Valentine.

None of the tanks in Malta/Gibraltar saw combat there. The Poles did train on the Valentine but were re-equipped with Shermans & Cromwells before serving in France (not Italy!) The 2nd Polish Armoured Brigade (later division) was in Italy, but with (you guessed it!) Shermans.



Of the other formations, 8AD never saw combat, 11AD saw service in NW Europe in Shermans and Cromwells, & 6AD used Shermans in Italy.


Nice Stuart jalopy of 2nd Lothian & Border Horse.


Valentines & Matildas in training exercises. There are a whole series of colour photos from this exercise in the IWM Collection.

....New Zealand received 255 Mk II, III and V Valentines, of which the New Zealand 3rd Division used 34 in their 1944 Pacific campaign. They modified 9 Mk III to the MK IIICS (Close Support) standard by replacing the standard 2 pdr gun with 3 inch (76.2 mm) howitzers from surplus Matilda Mk IV CS versions, and were instrumental in the Pacific Campaign until the end of the war.

The Kiwis used Shermans in Italy.


They did use the Valentine in the Pacific though.

......Other users of the Valentine included the Australians (mostly in North Africa), the Poles, and the Free French (a few) in Tunisia and Italy. Six Valentines from B Special Service Squadron, RAC, also took part in the attack on Diego Suarez on Madagascar (5-7 May 1942). One squadron was posted to Gibraltar.

An appropirately named Valentine in French service with 5RCA in Tunisia. With that beret could he be anything other than French?

The French were in Shermans (again) before getting to Italy & the Australians had gone home (or to the SW Pacific at least) by the time that the allies landed in Sicily.



On the other hand, the Russians used the Valentine (as a Light tank) until the end of the war.

The British were still using the Valentine in Europe in 1945, but as a command tank in Archer SP batteries. There were allegedly Crusader OP tanks in NW Europe too but I've never seen a photo of one. AA Crusader tanks & gun tractors on the other hand were reasonably common.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6ZlzHHt_Zc