Paying to put on a demonstration or participation game at a wargame show.

[Willz the Wargamer]

Paying to run a demonstration or participation game at a wargame show is the question.
This discussion is going on on Facebook and several forums, so I have posted it here.
What do you think a military modelling and wargame show has asked wargamers who are wanting to put on demonstration or participation games to pay a fee to attend. I do not know if the fee is £5 or £50.

No I definitely would not pay to put on a game at a wargame show, one of the reason lots of people visit wargame shows is to see or participate in demonstration or participation games. Asking fellow gamers who give up their time to build, paint and work with the public pay for the privilege is obscene and ignorant. Having run and been involved in running several demonstration or participation games over the years I have always strived to ensure that the onlookers are always are informed or involved in the games. I have always enjoyed doing this on my own or with others and considered it a privilege to do so.
If you are having to pay for that privilege you may as well do their own closed events with a couple of dozen like minded gamers. If the event organizers are getting paid for the honour of all your hard work does that mean they will carry all your items in, set them up under your supervision and interact with the public while you direct any questions on the game to their committee, who will charge a fee for the answer.

I have happily made financial donations to small invited wargame events to help with the cost of hiring the hall, my answer above is based on large wargaming events.
I don’t think I would boycott the event as a visitor but I would not put on a demo or participation game,

I appreciate that to organize and run a wargame event is time consuming and cost money but asking the life source of wargame shows to cough up money is short sited.


www.thewargameswebsite.com/forums/topic ... play-game/

Willz.

[BaronVonWreckedoften]

Having seen/heard awful stories about "Marie Celeste" type demo games where the players were nowhere to be seen for virtually the entire day, and/or refused to interact with the public, or even just didn't turn up on the day, not to mention appearing to regard "putting on a game" as an excuse for free entry to a show, I can understand why things have come to this. That said, I would certainly not countenance anyone putting on a participation game being charged - that is certainly beyond the pale as they are making a definite contribution to the "customer experience". I would expect at least part of the fees charged to go towards better security to prevent stuff being nicked from game tables. Just my thoughts, for what they are worth.....

[RMD]

Not while I have a hole in my arse.

Many, many years ago, I was invited to do a demo game at a 'multi-hobby' show...

They paid me...

Not only did they pay me - they also refunded me and every one of my minions our petrol money AND gave us food and drink vouchers for the weekend.

As much as it shames me to confess this, I have friends who display at model railway shows... OK, I say 'friends'; more acquaintances... OK, more people I haven't got around to killing yet for The Greater Good... They tell me that they routinely get paid by show organisers for contributing.

[Paul]

Anyone who thinks asking people who are contributing to the show to pay for the pleasure clearly has no idea of the cost in time and £ that it takes to put on a demo or participation game.
Any shows asking that are best avoided as they are clearly being run for the benefit of those running them and not those attending.
Now, if it's a matter of the shows not wanting to make a loss then require contributors to be shareholders of the show. They pay a fee then get it and possibly even a small premium back if the show makes a profit.

[ochoin]

Apart from the 2 year COVID-gap, we've staged a game at our local train & hobby show for the past 14 years (& will do so again in July). Pay for the privilege? Hardly; we get given lunch on both days, endless cups of tea & biscuits & a $100 stipend at the end of it. The organisers have said we bring people in, including some who come on both Saturday & Sunday to see how the battle works out.

I am certainly not saying we're somehow special. It's just the organisers sensibly don't bind the mouths of the kine that tread the grain.

donald

[Tim Hall]

During the 1980's and up to the mid 1990's I and friends put on several "Demo" games at quite a few shows, including Salute, Armageddon (Colours) as well as many smaller but no less worthy local shows. Generally our experience was positive, and at one or two having help supplied for unloading and loading, often parking was provided free as well. We did not go down the road of having one "game" that was hawked around shows for a season, but always endeavoured to put different games on at each show. We averaged three or four shows a year, always Salute, always Colours, and a couple of various smaller events. Norwich being a particular favourite. We tried to supply back up material, and at best a handout, and always had one of our group available to engage with the public, there was a strict "no table litter" rule in force, and scheduled breaks for shopping etc, but only if one person was on hand to mind the table. To do this often involved the expense of purchasing and painting terrain and figures, transport, occasionally overnight accommodation. To have then been asked to pay a fee for our attendance would have resulted in our leaving, and not doing it any more I think. These days, the much higher entry fees and Trader's charges should mean that any participation by fellow hobbyists, hopefully enhancing the show, would continue to be uncharged. But by the same token, it should not be a free pass for those who merely want to play a "club night" game ignoring spectators and the general public, until judging time comes around (as some of them do), likewise I don't want to see moving, or in most cases, completely stationary dioramas. Those participants who do this, should not be invited back I feel. There are so many talented groups and individuals out there only too happy to come along and put on a cracking demo/participation game, and that can only enhance the show, and sometimes generate custom for the traders as well.

[BaronVonWreckedoften]

These days, the much higher entry fees and Trader's charges should mean that any participation by fellow hobbyists, hopefully enhancing the show, would continue to be uncharged. But by the same token, it should not be a free pass for those who merely want to play a "club night" game ignoring spectators and the general public, until judging time comes around (as some of them do), likewise I don't want to see moving, or in most cases, completely stationary dioramas. Those participants who do this, should not be invited back I feel. There are so many talented groups and individuals out there only too happy to come along and put on a cracking demo/participation game, and that can only enhance the show, and sometimes generate custom for the traders as well.

As someone who has been involved with organising - forgive me for putting it like this - "proper" trade shows (the International Motor Show and the Farnborough Air Show, to name but two), I think that Tim makes a very important point that is often overlooked by show planners - namely where to place games in relation to trade stands. Sighting an appropriate game right in front of one or more trade stands where the audience can then at least peruse, if not actually purchase, appropriate figures, buildings, rules, etc can contribute massively to a trader's profits. To some extent, this would also allow the relevant traders to give support to the people putting on the game.

Another point. Probably the most unfortunate aspect of our "cottage industry" hobby is that "trade" shows are essentially organised, and run for, the benefit of a specific group of punters (ie a club), rather than the industry itself, as is more usually the case. It's as if the International Motor Show was organised by a group of people who all happened to drive a Toyota Yaris - very nice of them, but really, what is their agenda? I do recall, back in the 1980s, someone trying to organise a trade association to help set up shows and stop what was, even back then, seen as profiteering by one or two clubs, in terms of stand fees and the like. Unfortunately, that person was Neville Dickinson of Miniature Figurines, who could fairly be described as a (actually one of several) "Mister Marmite" of the wargaming world at that time, so the idea never really took off. And I think that the hobby is too set in its ways now to ever change that.

[Tim Hall]

. Sighting an appropriate game right in front of one or more trade stands where the audience can then at least peruse, if not actually purchase, appropriate figures, buildings, rules, etc can contribute massively to a trader's profits. To some extent, this would also allow the relevant traders to give support to the people putting on the game.

As an anecdote, several years back, a friend and I were putting on a 28mm WWII game at Loughton's Broadsword show, we were using the, then, new First Corps figures and it was the very early days of WWII in 28mm. There was a great deal of audience interest, as it was seen as something new. Also there was Battle Honours, who had just brought out their WWII Eastern Front range in 28mm, and thanks to us he got a lot of business. I know because he made a point of telling us at packing up time, thanked us profusely and presented both of us with a bag of each pack in his new range. I thought that was a nice gesture. It was never repeated at any subsequent shows by any other traders.

[ochoin]

One thing about his thread is that it underlines what we enthusiasts will undertake simply for the love of the hobby.
I think the waiving of a few fees or giving a small payment to those who run games is just a symbolic acknowledgement of this by show organisers just as charging them is a disrespectful act.

donald

[tim.w]

It hard work! Especially a paticipation game. Done a few 'toy soldier' games a few years back when developing the rules myself and Tim have tinkered with ever since. They tended to attract kids and parents, once a coach load of cubs, all great and the purpose of the game was to hook people in to wargaming. I have always worked with children so it never bothered me. Only once at a toy soldier show if Sheffield I ended up playing baby sitter to a rather "exentric" young man of about 11 while his Dad seemed to disappear for the afternoon. But yes, hard work though often enjoyable. I think the best work was mine and Tim's 54mm classic toy soldier game at the Driffield show not too long ago 2019? That got a fair bit of positive attention being pretty much the show centre piece of games, smack in the middle of the hall.

But paying to do it? No. The sister in law is a sometime actress, she gets paid on rare occasion and often not but to pay to do so much work would be nuts.